MOBAFire's second Mini Guide Contest of Season 14 is here! Create or update guides for the 30 featured champions and compete for up to $200 in prizes! š
I never said anything about defense not having value to a jungler. I just said that I feel Utility is over looked and I prefer the style. Saying that it doesnt help a jungler in their role is most likely coming from someone who hasnt tried it.
Junglers obviously make use of the gold generation. But the tree generates in more ways then that. The MS is increasing map mobility which means more ganks. The buff durations, CDR, XP gain, and MS all contribute to better ganks in their own way. Theres nothing sub optimal about that. Its just a different kind of bonus.
My view on masteries is what makes you the most effetive for the first 20 minutes. Youre not constantly taking damage from champions as a laner would and most of your interactions with the enemy are on a 2v1 basis at that point. This devalues the defense tree in my mind but I dont think people ever consider that.
Hell, the tree constains lifesteal and spell vamp ffs. Thats not a support stat. The tree has a lot of overlooked value to a jungler that people dont even consider. I never said "this is the best way" but I sure as hell prefer it and Ive been almost exclusively jungling for 2 years.
All I asked was for people to consider those things and try it for themselves. But that doesnt happen of course. People say exactly what you just did. "The defense tree does this, so its optimal." As if I didnt already know what the defense tree does from 100s of hours of hands on experience.
There is no one singular right way. If there was we wouldnt have options on how we build. Am I asking that people upvote guides that have details they dont like? Of course not. Im asking people to try something before they decide instead of basing an opinion on preconceived notions.
Junglers obviously make use of the gold generation. But the tree generates in more ways then that. The MS is increasing map mobility which means more ganks. The buff durations, CDR, XP gain, and MS all contribute to better ganks in their own way. Theres nothing sub optimal about that. Its just a different kind of bonus.
My view on masteries is what makes you the most effetive for the first 20 minutes. Youre not constantly taking damage from champions as a laner would and most of your interactions with the enemy are on a 2v1 basis at that point. This devalues the defense tree in my mind but I dont think people ever consider that.
Hell, the tree constains lifesteal and spell vamp ffs. Thats not a support stat. The tree has a lot of overlooked value to a jungler that people dont even consider. I never said "this is the best way" but I sure as hell prefer it and Ive been almost exclusively jungling for 2 years.
All I asked was for people to consider those things and try it for themselves. But that doesnt happen of course. People say exactly what you just did. "The defense tree does this, so its optimal." As if I didnt already know what the defense tree does from 100s of hours of hands on experience.
There is no one singular right way. If there was we wouldnt have options on how we build. Am I asking that people upvote guides that have details they dont like? Of course not. Im asking people to try something before they decide instead of basing an opinion on preconceived notions.
Dude. There is no singular right way. I agree.
There are BETTER things, however, for certain topics.
You can ask people to try it.
They can try it. They may have even tried it. You can't place judgement on that when they haven't even mentioned it.
People downvote and bash ideas they don't like.
If they don't like it it's YOUR JOB to convince them. It's not their fault for "not listening".
The most key concept of a jungler is the ability to initiate and carry game momentum. Your whole concept on jungling is flawed.
Sure, you take less damage from champions. But honestly? You'll be counter-jungling, counter-ganking, getting counter-ganked most of the time. 2v1s aren't always successful as well. What if your laner is low? What if you're low coming out of the jungle? The guy can easily 1v2 if such a situation happens.
Junglers don't sit in the jungle, clear camps, and gank occasionally. That's like a 900 elo jungler. Proper junglers NEED to be able to counter-gank and gank effectively. Utility on junglers places this ability far behind defense does. The gold gen from utiltiy is measly, and the stats are far less valuable than what the defense tree provides. This is why people prefer defense on their jungler - because defense allows junglers to have sustained tankiness through early game and allows them to transition into a strong mid game.
If you want to advocate your ideas, back it up. "Try it" isn't evidence. "I've done it and it worked in a ranked game" isn't evidence. CONVINCE people if you want them to believe in it. Half of the community won't listen to **** from a low elo player because they don't think it's convincing. Hell, most of the smart league players won't even bother trying. Why would they listen to you if your arguments aren't convincing at all? "Gold gen in utility + MS" isn't convincing. I'd much rather have defense.
Sure you can advocate your thoughts. You'd be advocating a complete different playstyles for junglers. I'm not saying utility is bad, etc. If you play 21 utility on junglers you'd be simply advocating for junglers to gank less and react less to counterganks, and rather only come out when there's an opportunity to gank / kill.
There are BETTER things, however, for certain topics.
You can ask people to try it.
They can try it. They may have even tried it. You can't place judgement on that when they haven't even mentioned it.
People downvote and bash ideas they don't like.
If they don't like it it's YOUR JOB to convince them. It's not their fault for "not listening".
The most key concept of a jungler is the ability to initiate and carry game momentum. Your whole concept on jungling is flawed.
Sure, you take less damage from champions. But honestly? You'll be counter-jungling, counter-ganking, getting counter-ganked most of the time. 2v1s aren't always successful as well. What if your laner is low? What if you're low coming out of the jungle? The guy can easily 1v2 if such a situation happens.
Junglers don't sit in the jungle, clear camps, and gank occasionally. That's like a 900 elo jungler. Proper junglers NEED to be able to counter-gank and gank effectively. Utility on junglers places this ability far behind defense does. The gold gen from utiltiy is measly, and the stats are far less valuable than what the defense tree provides. This is why people prefer defense on their jungler - because defense allows junglers to have sustained tankiness through early game and allows them to transition into a strong mid game.
If you want to advocate your ideas, back it up. "Try it" isn't evidence. "I've done it and it worked in a ranked game" isn't evidence. CONVINCE people if you want them to believe in it. Half of the community won't listen to **** from a low elo player because they don't think it's convincing. Hell, most of the smart league players won't even bother trying. Why would they listen to you if your arguments aren't convincing at all? "Gold gen in utility + MS" isn't convincing. I'd much rather have defense.
Sure you can advocate your thoughts. You'd be advocating a complete different playstyles for junglers. I'm not saying utility is bad, etc. If you play 21 utility on junglers you'd be simply advocating for junglers to gank less and react less to counterganks, and rather only come out when there's an opportunity to gank / kill.
So let me get this strait? I play the game flawed, yet we're the same elo... So what does that say about you? You play the right way and yet you cant move higher?
What does the defense tree give you at level one that would help me in a champion fight? 53 health, 5 armor, 5 reduced damage from a champion, and honor guard... You add all that together in an early game situation and what does it amount to? It basically means I could get hit with one more ability then I would have other wise been able to survive. And because I dont have that, Im incapable of doing my job as a jungler. That is ridiculous. I mean I know it is because I know other wise, but how does that not even sound ridiculous to you?
And your examples make no sense. Why would I be coming out of the jungle low? Who the hell would I be jungling that would be getting shredded by jungle camps? Xin has built in sustain, J4 has a shield and an armor buff, Yi rapes the jungle with one ability. None of these champions have any issue whatsoever dealing with the jungle. What jungler does?
I simply cant have this conversation anymore because its pointless. You obviously have no idea what those masteries are like in practice. Youre making it sound as though I would be as squishy as 2 balls out of a sack when thats not the case.
You make it sound as though mastery shifts have never occurred in the past. In S1 mages started out using 21 offense and switched to 21 utility. It wasnt until S2 when then went back to 21 offense. In S2 melee top laners started out using 21 offense and switched to 21 defense. Drastic shifts have occurred in the past that no one would have ever originally thought would happen. You just have to open your eyes and try something new.
What does the defense tree give you at level one that would help me in a champion fight? 53 health, 5 armor, 5 reduced damage from a champion, and honor guard... You add all that together in an early game situation and what does it amount to? It basically means I could get hit with one more ability then I would have other wise been able to survive. And because I dont have that, Im incapable of doing my job as a jungler. That is ridiculous. I mean I know it is because I know other wise, but how does that not even sound ridiculous to you?
And your examples make no sense. Why would I be coming out of the jungle low? Who the hell would I be jungling that would be getting shredded by jungle camps? Xin has built in sustain, J4 has a shield and an armor buff, Yi rapes the jungle with one ability. None of these champions have any issue whatsoever dealing with the jungle. What jungler does?
I simply cant have this conversation anymore because its pointless. You obviously have no idea what those masteries are like in practice. Youre making it sound as though I would be as squishy as 2 balls out of a sack when thats not the case.
You make it sound as though mastery shifts have never occurred in the past. In S1 mages started out using 21 offense and switched to 21 utility. It wasnt until S2 when then went back to 21 offense. In S2 melee top laners started out using 21 offense and switched to 21 defense. Drastic shifts have occurred in the past that no one would have ever originally thought would happen. You just have to open your eyes and try something new.
Aseafy
<Member>
<Member>
If you are the same elo it just means you are better. Challenger tier players could porbably get to plat or diamond playing stupid set ups because they are just that good.
Also, while I do not support 9 in offense instead of 9 in defense, utility jungle definitly works. While you are a bit squishier early on, late game, utility really kicks in, and the movement speed is just amazing. Movement speed is just so good on any jungler, that if the enemy early game is not that strong, I would run utility on most junglers. (Hecarim, xin, udyr)
Also, while I do not support 9 in offense instead of 9 in defense, utility jungle definitly works. While you are a bit squishier early on, late game, utility really kicks in, and the movement speed is just amazing. Movement speed is just so good on any jungler, that if the enemy early game is not that strong, I would run utility on most junglers. (Hecarim, xin, udyr)
Palthios wrote:
So let me get this strait? I play the game flawed, yet we're the same elo... So what does that say about you? You play the right way and yet you cant move higher?
What does the defense tree give you at level one that would help me in a champion fight? 53 health, 5 armor, 5 reduced damage from a champion, and honor guard... You add all that together in an early game situation and what does it amount to? It basically means I could get hit with one more ability then I would have other wise been able to survive. And because I dont have that, Im incapable of doing my job as a jungler. That is ridiculous. I mean I know it is because I know other wise, but how does that not even sound ridiculous to you?
And your examples make no sense. Why would I be coming out of the jungle low? Who the hell would I be jungling that would be getting shredded by jungle camps? Xin has built in sustain, J4 has a shield and an armor buff, Yi rapes the jungle with one ability. None of these champions have any issue whatsoever dealing with the jungle. What jungler does?
I simply cant have this conversation anymore because its pointless. You obviously have no idea what those masteries are like in practice. Youre making it sound as though I would be as squishy as 2 balls out of a sack when thats not the case.
You make it sound as though mastery shifts have never occurred in the past. In S1 mages started out using 21 offense and switched to 21 utility. It wasnt until S2 when then went back to 21 offense. In S2 melee top laners started out using 21 offense and switched to 21 defense. Drastic shifts have occurred in the past that no one would have ever originally thought would happen. You just have to open your eyes and try something new.
Embracing's actually Plat on CN.
It's just his NA account, which has no ranked games (iirc), is Gold 3.
Aseafy wrote:
If you are the same elo it just means you are better. Challenger tier players could porbably get to plat or diamond playing stupid set ups because they are just that good.
Also, while I do not support 9 in offense instead of 9 in defense, utility jungle definitly works. While you are a bit squishier early on, late game, utility really kicks in, and the movement speed is just amazing. Movement speed is just so good on any jungler, that if the enemy early game is not that strong, I would run utility on most junglers. (Hecarim, xin, udyr)
Thank god. I knew I couldnt possibly be the only person using 21 utility.
I never said full utiltiy was bad. I said people prefer 21 in defense over 21 in utiltiy.
There are exceptions, but to your guide
9/0/21 on both Xin and Jarvan was what I was referring to.
And @tehasian i lent my acc to throat
Back on topic: I never said you'd come out with 0 hp. I'd never say that you'd be 100% incapable. Don't assume things I haven't said.
Let me put it like this.
Junglers need to skirmish a lot early game.
The defense tree gives junglers a stronger ability to do so than the utility tree does.
The utility tree doesn't give as much in return for its loss in defense.
Therefore most people preferdefense in their mastery tree rather than utility.
As such, since people do so they downvote your guide because they do not like what you're advocating.
It's not the community's fault for rejecting your ideas.
Should I upvote your guide for having something i don't like?
Also, stop making it seem like I'm saying the game's black and white. It's not and I even said that myself.
Last post in this thread.
You don't even seem to want to understand what I'm trying to say and rather post all this ******** back at me.
There are exceptions, but to your guide
9/0/21 on both Xin and Jarvan was what I was referring to.
And @tehasian i lent my acc to throat
Back on topic: I never said you'd come out with 0 hp. I'd never say that you'd be 100% incapable. Don't assume things I haven't said.
Let me put it like this.
Junglers need to skirmish a lot early game.
The defense tree gives junglers a stronger ability to do so than the utility tree does.
The utility tree doesn't give as much in return for its loss in defense.
Therefore most people preferdefense in their mastery tree rather than utility.
As such, since people do so they downvote your guide because they do not like what you're advocating.
It's not the community's fault for rejecting your ideas.
Should I upvote your guide for having something i don't like?
Also, stop making it seem like I'm saying the game's black and white. It's not and I even said that myself.
Last post in this thread.
You don't even seem to want to understand what I'm trying to say and rather post all this ******** back at me.
And youre not getting my point. This goes both ways. You act as though Ive put no thought into the defense tree and what it offers. The same tree that Ive been using as a jungler for the past 2 years.
Like I said, in a 100 to 0 zero fight the defense tree isnt giving you much. You act as though it is, but it isnt. The only way to get full value out of the damage mitigation is to constantly go back and forth with another champion. And thats not what a jungler does. Your not in lane constantly trading damage with other champions. Your interaction with those champions is always on a 100 to 0 basis.
The utility tree doesn't give as much in return for its loss in defense? It does. Your just not putting the thought into it to realize that fact. The XP gain is helping you keep up in levels. And levels give you more raw stats then any of the mastery trees. The gold generation is helping you keep up in items. And again, items give you more then masteries do. The CDR is boosting your damage output which contributes to survivability. The MS is helping you both offensively and defensively.
Your stance on what utility offers in fights is based on raw stats. It doesnt give raw stats. It generates stats.
Not that Im expecting you to see that fact. Youre set in your ways and basically proved the whole point of this thread.
Do I think you should upvote a guide that you dont like? I already said no. No one should do that. But thats not what this is about. This is about deciding to not like something youve never tried.
Like I said, in a 100 to 0 zero fight the defense tree isnt giving you much. You act as though it is, but it isnt. The only way to get full value out of the damage mitigation is to constantly go back and forth with another champion. And thats not what a jungler does. Your not in lane constantly trading damage with other champions. Your interaction with those champions is always on a 100 to 0 basis.
The utility tree doesn't give as much in return for its loss in defense? It does. Your just not putting the thought into it to realize that fact. The XP gain is helping you keep up in levels. And levels give you more raw stats then any of the mastery trees. The gold generation is helping you keep up in items. And again, items give you more then masteries do. The CDR is boosting your damage output which contributes to survivability. The MS is helping you both offensively and defensively.
Your stance on what utility offers in fights is based on raw stats. It doesnt give raw stats. It generates stats.
Not that Im expecting you to see that fact. Youre set in your ways and basically proved the whole point of this thread.
Do I think you should upvote a guide that you dont like? I already said no. No one should do that. But thats not what this is about. This is about deciding to not like something youve never tried.
Palthios wrote:
This is about deciding to not like something youve never tried.
So I should try
Manamune on Shen before knocking the idea? Or shall I just disregard the idea before having to try it?The only jungler I run 21 Utility on is
Hecarim, but I still take defense masteries (0/9/21 or 1/8/21).
You need to log in before commenting.
Factual details - running defense on junglers helps junglers 1) come out the jungle healthy 2) help SUCCESSFULLY gank 3) help react to counterganks 4) help clear times, which, all in all, help the jungler carry the game momentum early game, the whole purpose of a jungler.
personal opinions appear from players who actually know the LIMITATIONS of crazy ideas.
Ideas are viable in the sense that they are within the meta "box".
There are reasons why pros don't try out every single idea possible. It's not that they didn't think about it; It's that they realize those ideas wander too far from the purpose of the game - winning.
The people who reject crazy thoughts that are "out of the box" aren't saying that ideas don't work.
Sure, you can run 21 utility as a jungler. No one minds. It works in the end because it's a minor detail. However you're sacrificing huge potential as a jungler to do so, which is why people downvote guides with it. They downvote because it's not optimal for winning and would mislead other people. Are you implying that we should upvote your guide even though it has details we don't like?
If you want to advocate your own ideas you have to have convincing evidence - which would be not "I TRIED IT IN MY GAMES AND IT WORKS LIKE A CHARM" or "PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED IT SAID THEY LIKED IT", rather logical arguments which places the champ(s) into their respective roles and lets them do their job well.
Now back to your question: Why do people shut down new ideas?
It's not as simple as that. People don't shut down new ideas. They shut down new suboptimal ideas. When a concept is advocating the opposite of what a role / champ is trying to achieve people downvote it and shut it down.
PS: So far I haven't seen any innovative proper idea brought up yet, nor have I seen any that has been ferociously shut down yet.