I am about to make an in-depth video on my warding strategy and on how to ward overall (just waiting for my new mic to arrive) which should cover all your questions. I'll try to answer them here though.
When should I be defensively warding. When should I be aggressively warding in enemy territory.
So in a standard situation the map should look something like this - when all turrets are up. Blue line indicates the 'zone of control' for blue team, the red line for red team and the grey marks are to indicate 'neutral zone'.
These zones are important because they essentially mean who has control over specific parts of the map and will also tell where the next 'point of contention' will be. This in turn helps you know where to ward.
So you can simplify this by saying that brushes in blue area, as close to the 'border' are good spots for pink wards, as you have control over the area they will last quite some time. Another possibility is to place pink wards far past the red border; as it is not a point of contention the pink ward will often last quite long. Good places are the brush behind red and somewhat left of the blue camp.
The neutral area is an area which you're trying to seize, as you can see this grey area is important for dragon control and for early game rotations to take down outer turrets. This area is great to place green wards in as they will yield you absolute vision of the zone where **** will go down. It's also the most important spot to sweep wards.
You can also place green wards just on the edges of the enemy's territory to give a little bit more deep vision but they are overall slightly more risky, though with higher risk comes higher reward.
Now lets assume your mid turret drops, now these zones will shift:
You can see now that the neutral zone shifts further towards you. This means the next fight is more likely to occur somewhere in your jungle, meaning you need to ward more defensively. You also need to move your pink wards further back because otherwise they'll be destroyed sooner. This also works the other way, if you take their turrets you can put your pink wards further forward and ward further in their jungle.
Obviously this is a generalization, but it does apply to most games you'll find yourself playing. For example, when each team has no turrets outside their own base left standing, the neutral zone will be massive. This also means you'll need to have a lot of wards down for absolute vision control. Then you need to try and find the next point of contention: where you expect the next fight to be. This is usually done by checking timers for objectives or by watching the minion waves (big minion wave pushing towards the enemy means you can siege a turret there, meaning its a point of contention).
It's not a direct answer to your question though. A TLDR would be to ward defensively when the enemy is pressuring you, ward aggressively when you are pressuring the enemy. Turrets often reflect the map pressure of a team.
How do I get those wards in place with the least risk of dying?
This is a logic follow up question. Neutral zone wards early game are usually safe, but later in the game they aren't. It's important to ask your team to cover you while you ward, or only ward when you have your team around. Map awareness is very important: if you see the enemy jungler top, you have less risk of getting caught while placing deep wards in your jungle.
In competitive you very regularly see the support coupling with the jungler to place wards together: there is safety in numbers. It also allows you to place more than 3 wards.
If you don't know where the enemies are and you don't have any support, you shouldn't take any risks. Check every brush you come across with spells and ward around you on your way to the specific spot you want warded. Most importantly: don't take any risks if you don't necessarily have to take them.
So when is a good time to go drop a ward in the enemy jungle? Is the bush besides blue a preferred location or the area immediately to the right that gives vision of multiple pathways?
Can answer both of these questions at once.
Usually I go ward when I come back from base, as there usually is less risk for my ADC to get caught when I do it at that moment. Other good times are when you have pushed the lane (you won't lose xp/cs this way and again, less risk for your adc getting caught) or when you know exactly where the enemy jungler is. Most preferably though: combine these factors :)
Both wards are good, which you want completely depends what you want to achieve. The area to the right is great when you want to spot movement, the one in the brush near blue is great if you want to contest blue itself (when you know the timer). Note though that pink wards will frequently be placed in that brush so they are more likely to be cleaned out, while the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared.
Another good spot is the banana-brush just left from blue, near the mid lane. Gives you a lot of defensive vision for your mid laner.
Hope this answers your questions :)
100% depends on whether blitz can land hooks on important targets or not, but usually Thresh is the more versatile pick so he has the edge here.
Quoted:
When should I be defensively warding. When should I be aggressively warding in enemy territory.
So in a standard situation the map should look something like this - when all turrets are up. Blue line indicates the 'zone of control' for blue team, the red line for red team and the grey marks are to indicate 'neutral zone'.
These zones are important because they essentially mean who has control over specific parts of the map and will also tell where the next 'point of contention' will be. This in turn helps you know where to ward.
So you can simplify this by saying that brushes in blue area, as close to the 'border' are good spots for pink wards, as you have control over the area they will last quite some time. Another possibility is to place pink wards far past the red border; as it is not a point of contention the pink ward will often last quite long. Good places are the brush behind red and somewhat left of the blue camp.
The neutral area is an area which you're trying to seize, as you can see this grey area is important for dragon control and for early game rotations to take down outer turrets. This area is great to place green wards in as they will yield you absolute vision of the zone where **** will go down. It's also the most important spot to sweep wards.
You can also place green wards just on the edges of the enemy's territory to give a little bit more deep vision but they are overall slightly more risky, though with higher risk comes higher reward.
Now lets assume your mid turret drops, now these zones will shift:
You can see now that the neutral zone shifts further towards you. This means the next fight is more likely to occur somewhere in your jungle, meaning you need to ward more defensively. You also need to move your pink wards further back because otherwise they'll be destroyed sooner. This also works the other way, if you take their turrets you can put your pink wards further forward and ward further in their jungle.
Obviously this is a generalization, but it does apply to most games you'll find yourself playing. For example, when each team has no turrets outside their own base left standing, the neutral zone will be massive. This also means you'll need to have a lot of wards down for absolute vision control. Then you need to try and find the next point of contention: where you expect the next fight to be. This is usually done by checking timers for objectives or by watching the minion waves (big minion wave pushing towards the enemy means you can siege a turret there, meaning its a point of contention).
It's not a direct answer to your question though. A TLDR would be to ward defensively when the enemy is pressuring you, ward aggressively when you are pressuring the enemy. Turrets often reflect the map pressure of a team.
Quoted:
How do I get those wards in place with the least risk of dying?
This is a logic follow up question. Neutral zone wards early game are usually safe, but later in the game they aren't. It's important to ask your team to cover you while you ward, or only ward when you have your team around. Map awareness is very important: if you see the enemy jungler top, you have less risk of getting caught while placing deep wards in your jungle.
In competitive you very regularly see the support coupling with the jungler to place wards together: there is safety in numbers. It also allows you to place more than 3 wards.
If you don't know where the enemies are and you don't have any support, you shouldn't take any risks. Check every brush you come across with spells and ward around you on your way to the specific spot you want warded. Most importantly: don't take any risks if you don't necessarily have to take them.
Quoted:
So when is a good time to go drop a ward in the enemy jungle? Is the bush besides blue a preferred location or the area immediately to the right that gives vision of multiple pathways?
Can answer both of these questions at once.
Usually I go ward when I come back from base, as there usually is less risk for my ADC to get caught when I do it at that moment. Other good times are when you have pushed the lane (you won't lose xp/cs this way and again, less risk for your adc getting caught) or when you know exactly where the enemy jungler is. Most preferably though: combine these factors :)
Both wards are good, which you want completely depends what you want to achieve. The area to the right is great when you want to spot movement, the one in the brush near blue is great if you want to contest blue itself (when you know the timer). Note though that pink wards will frequently be placed in that brush so they are more likely to be cleaned out, while the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared.
Another good spot is the banana-brush just left from blue, near the mid lane. Gives you a lot of defensive vision for your mid laner.
Hope this answers your questions :)
Hatted wrote:
Who has better late-game, blitz or thresh?
100% depends on whether blitz can land hooks on important targets or not, but usually Thresh is the more versatile pick so he has the edge here.
Thanks for the quick and in-depth response Vynertje. I look forward to checking out your video when in comes out. Assuming you'll drop a link to that in this thread?
Regarding your second picture, this clearly illustrates why I've seen a number of high level players on streams drop a ward after taking mid tower (gives your team vision in a place that the opposing team used to have vision). Though I'll note that they only seem to do this around the mid outer tower and not the outer top or bot tower. Which makes sense in that jungle vision in those areas is probably usually more important than lane vision (unless you happen to be an assassin that is looking for the chance to find a lonely carry farming up in top or bot lane). Also means that it is a good idea to check for wards around mid tower after it has fallen.
Note though that pink wards will frequently be placed in that brush so they are more likely to be cleaned out, while the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared.
I have noticed the frequency of pink wards in that location. I tend to drop one there as jungle or support if our ward line is pushed back into my territory or the opposing team has tried contesting blue at some point.
And when you say the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared out, do you mean the red side tribush that has an exit near the red bot outer turret?
Do you generally walk into that bush to check when you are roaming to place deep wards to check for a pink? Or just place the ward and go back and destroy the pink if you notice after placing your ward? Or would you only do that if you can see the laners and jungle on the map?
Regarding your second picture, this clearly illustrates why I've seen a number of high level players on streams drop a ward after taking mid tower (gives your team vision in a place that the opposing team used to have vision). Though I'll note that they only seem to do this around the mid outer tower and not the outer top or bot tower. Which makes sense in that jungle vision in those areas is probably usually more important than lane vision (unless you happen to be an assassin that is looking for the chance to find a lonely carry farming up in top or bot lane). Also means that it is a good idea to check for wards around mid tower after it has fallen.
Vynertje wrote:
Note though that pink wards will frequently be placed in that brush so they are more likely to be cleaned out, while the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared.
I have noticed the frequency of pink wards in that location. I tend to drop one there as jungle or support if our ward line is pushed back into my territory or the opposing team has tried contesting blue at some point.
And when you say the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared out, do you mean the red side tribush that has an exit near the red bot outer turret?
Do you generally walk into that bush to check when you are roaming to place deep wards to check for a pink? Or just place the ward and go back and destroy the pink if you notice after placing your ward? Or would you only do that if you can see the laners and jungle on the map?
Quoted:
Assuming you'll drop a link to that in this thread?
Yeah I'll post it here but it will appear first on:
https://www.youtube.com/user/vynertjee
Quoted:
Regarding your second picture, this clearly illustrates why I've seen a number of high level players on streams drop a ward after taking mid tower (gives your team vision in a place that the opposing team used to have vision). Though I'll note that they only seem to do this around the mid outer tower and not the outer top or bot tower. Which makes sense in that jungle vision in those areas is probably usually more important than lane vision (unless you happen to be an assassin that is looking for the chance to find a lonely carry farming up in top or bot lane). Also means that it is a good idea to check for wards around mid tower after it has fallen.
Correct. Having vision deep in the mid lane will give you a lot of knowledge in what direction the enemy is moving. It also works really, really well if you place one after killing the enemy inhib. Do not expect it to be done a lot at lower ratings though (and by lower ratings I mean everything under Diamond this time).
Quoted:
And when you say the one just to the right sometimes cannot be cleared out, do you mean the red side tribush that has an exit near the red bot outer turret?
Do you generally walk into that bush to check when you are roaming to place deep wards to check for a pink? Or just place the ward and go back and destroy the pink if you notice after placing your ward? Or would you only do that if you can see the laners and jungle on the map?
No, I mean in the area just right to that blue buff brush you were talking about yourself ;-) If you place a green just an inch further towards the Red team's base the pink ward sometimes cannot spot it.
I usually don't walk in just because of the risk of getting caught, unless I know their whole team is A) base or B) on the other side of the map. They just need mid and support to come and you're down a flash / dead because you're so squishy and slow as a support.
A very thorough answer to my warding question before I even asked it! Great question VexRoth!
+rep for the great answer.
I look forward to the complete video!
* Another question. I prefer Janna Sup and I have been debating about skipping the 3 Health pots and 1 mana pot for starting items and instead purchasing a pink ward and 1 health pot. what are your thoughts on staring items when you have 150 gold?
Follow up... if the pink ward is the way to go where is the best place for it. I am unranked... I have never played in a ranked game (noob) so I am going to enter into low Elo. So far in normals I see most players run to their "starting" locations and sit there waiting for the spawns. Laners are going to their tower and jg and the leash head to red or toad. This opens up some warding options most games. The safe spot for pink is the tri-bush at bottom. But I am tempted to try the enemy banana bush near mid or even the bush near blue. All this is null if you say don't get the pink =) but what advice can you give with the low Elo crowd in mind?
+rep for the great answer.
I look forward to the complete video!
* Another question. I prefer Janna Sup and I have been debating about skipping the 3 Health pots and 1 mana pot for starting items and instead purchasing a pink ward and 1 health pot. what are your thoughts on staring items when you have 150 gold?
Follow up... if the pink ward is the way to go where is the best place for it. I am unranked... I have never played in a ranked game (noob) so I am going to enter into low Elo. So far in normals I see most players run to their "starting" locations and sit there waiting for the spawns. Laners are going to their tower and jg and the leash head to red or toad. This opens up some warding options most games. The safe spot for pink is the tri-bush at bottom. But I am tempted to try the enemy banana bush near mid or even the bush near blue. All this is null if you say don't get the pink =) but what advice can you give with the low Elo crowd in mind?
Quoted:
* Another question. I prefer Janna Sup and I have been debating about skipping the 3 Health pots and 1 mana pot for starting items and instead purchasing a pink ward and 1 health pot. what are your thoughts on staring items when you have 150 gold?
You need the potions. No exceptions.
Consider it like this: one potion (especially if you have the upgrade masteries) is like 200 virtual hp you get for the first few levels, while the enemy ADC only has one potion. So you just trade with the enemy ADC and he'll be forced base before you've ran out of potions yourself. If he doesn't base in time you get a kill. If you really want that pinkward it is better to just base when you get a good moment and grab one from base.
Related to your question: that's also why I strongly discourage people from starting *support item* + green ward + potions. Extra potions just mean you can play so much more aggressive.
Vynertje wrote:
No, I mean in the area just right to that blue buff brush you were talking about yourself ;-) If you place a green just an inch further towards the Red team's base the pink ward sometimes cannot spot it.
Thanks for the clarification and the tip about placing it an inchish North of where the vision ward might pick it up. :-)
lanilwow wrote:
Great question VexRoth!
Thanks. Hoping to move up to Gold this season and from what I've observed good warding is a solid way to give your whole team a better chance of succeeding.
Who knows maybe we can get Riot/the LoL community to relabel supports as vision carries. XD
Also guys update on wards. If you want to see how much you ward compared to other players, check out http://wardscore.loltools.net/ - I posted this before but it really is a great tool to see how well you actually ward.
Obviously it doesn't cover stuff like pink wards, wards destroyed and the exact placement of wards, but the amount of wards bought is a good statistic to begin with.
For example, this is mine:
Obviously it doesn't cover stuff like pink wards, wards destroyed and the exact placement of wards, but the amount of wards bought is a good statistic to begin with.
For example, this is mine:
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For example, a somewhat non-experienced or lower rated support will know he's supposed to ward, but will not 'learn the trade' of warding and counterwarding. This will mean that literally every game I play at low-mid diamond I will have most wards placed, most wards destroyed and most pinks bought overall. They will prioritize big items over wards, which is a really dumb thing to do. I rush sightstone and tier 2 boots every game and once I get sightstone, I roam away from my lane to place down wards deep in the enemy jungle (if possible and safe). This costs me a little bit of xp but gives my mid, jungler and bot ourselves a big edge because it makes it so easy to predict where the enemy jungler will be and allow you to react accordingly.
Vynertje. Appreciate you taking some time to share your insights regarding Supporting.
I was hoping you could elaborate a little more on your warding strategy. I feel like I'm in a pretty good place as far as keeping my lane warded and as you mention later, always having three stealth wards and one vision ward out on the map. Where I feel like I could use some guidance is when and were to ward in the enemies jungle while also keeping myself and my laning partner as safe as possible. And warding after laning phase has ended. When should I be defensively warding. When should I be aggressively warding in enemy territory. How do I get those wards in place with the least risk of dying?
Let's take blue side bot lane as ' laning example. I tend to pink the tri-bush as it has some chance of lasting there and either ward just to the right of the dragon pit or the river bush if the enemy jungler is someone like Jarvan that can get into that bush without going directly through the river. That leaves two wards, one of which will likely go in a lane bush. So when is a good time to go drop a ward in the enemy jungle? Is the bush besides blue a preferred location or the area immediately to the right that gives vision of multiple pathways?