ELO HELL EXISTS, THESE ARE THE REASONS WHY

[quote=Vynertje][quote=Ixtellor]So to test the theory a low level person would have to have access to a higher level account then is what it sounds like. I have lots of money, can you buy a high level account to test that theory? I think its against the rules though. [/quote] This test has already been done multiple times for a lot of different players, no point on doing it again. [quote]I personally feel like the game is complex, but not insanely complicated. I feel like I know how to jungle. [/quote] The only reason you think that is because you haven't faced people that DO know how to jungle. Give me a replay and I'll tell for sure. [quote]People said "know when to baron or dragon". This isn't that complicated. The problem in silver league is that people would rather chase kills, so even if the perfect opportunity arises, frequently you can't get your team to go along. [/quote] You are highly underestimating the complexity of this game which only more shows that you can't match up against higher rated people. [quote]I have a 2nd question --- can you be platinum 3 and be horrible at one of the positions? If I was forced to ADC , my team is in a lot of trouble. But when I can support or jungle I feel like I can lead my team to victory.[/quote] Depends what you mean by 'horrible'. I'm a horrible ADC by my Elo's standards, but I'm still a godlike ADC for any Elo that's not diamond.[/quote]

[quote=Ixtellor][quote=sirell] Just how many Diamond+ players have created smurfs, deliberately failed their placement games, got into Bronze 5 and climbed up to high Elo again, just to prove that it can be done? I can name at least 10 or so off the top of my head. Elo boosters CONSTANTLY boost Elo from Bronze to anything. [/quote] While your main point may be true, I hate this horrible flawed analogy. Yes A high Diamond player can carry an account back to diamond. DUH. Also, Lebron James can take any high school team to the state championship and Ronda Rousey can take any high school wrestling team to the state finals --- thats not a big deal. Can a Gold V easily carry a silver 4 game with consistency? That is like a 200 elo difference in skill. The difference between Gold V and Silver 1 is 50 ELO. Can a gold 5 consistantly carry a silver 1 team? Obviously not. Eventually after a lot of games they will climb, but its very possible it might take them hundreds of games if there true ELO is gold V, that they get stuck in Silver 1 "hell". (I put hell in quotes, because in reality those games are probably the same with only indeciperable differences. Also --- Only 20% of LoL players are in gold or higher. So even though ELO hell might be fiction, having a 1% player climb out of it, doesn't prove anything. Also, League needs a lot more ranks. Apparently at the Diamond 1 level there are 1000 ELO differences between some of those players. [img=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-byVsUju_ZRY/UTaqQmjIdLI/AAAAAAAAHkM/SN4weHiUPFc/s1600/rankeddistribution1.png][/quote]

[quote=Ixtellor][quote=Vynertje] This test has already been done multiple times for a lot of different players, no point on doing it again. [/quote] Any links? I would love to see those 'tests'. [quote] The only reason you think that is because you haven't faced people that DO know how to jungle. Give me a replay and I'll tell for sure. [/quote] I have seen people rip apart high level junglers and seen criticism of LCS level junglers. So finding fault in a single replay would prove what? [quote] You are highly underestimating the complexity of this game which only more shows that you can't match up against higher rated people. [/quote] Trick2g has like a 1000 videos of him saying the game is simple and not that complex. So does he understand the game? [quote] Depends what you mean by 'horrible'. I'm a horrible ADC by my Elo's standards, but I'm still a godlike ADC for any Elo that's not diamond.[/quote] So you're saying that you are in the top 1% of players in League and that you find it easy to beat people at any position if they aren't in the top 1%? That makes sense I guess. Also, the ELO difference between Plat 1 and Diamond 5 is 50 points. So are you saying that a 50 point ELO difference means you can dominate at any position? (that is what you said)[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend]While I think your theory is interesting, you prove just as less as any other in this thread. The thing that comes closest to proving anything is the Elo booster argument from Sirell you just quoted. In fact, if what you say is true, any gold V player should indeed be able to carry a silver I team, because that gold V player has played, in your words, hundreds of games, and the player managed to get to gold V as opposed to the others, so the player should indeed be able to consistently carry a silver I team by then. The theory that a player of a certain rank will usually end up a bit below that rank, your theory if I understand right, does in fact make no difference to the system, simply because that means that player b, who's currently ranked at the rank that player a's "skill level is at", should, according to your theory, have a higher rank than what player b is currently ranked (his "skill level" is also higher than his rank). So it's still a linear scale. The only point of interest could be the 5-game promos, but I can't see why this should be relevant (in other words: prove it or leave it).[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=Ixtellor] While your main point may be true, I hate this horrible flawed analogy. [/quote] Firstly, this isn't really an analogy, since I am not using separate instances, but rather one EXAMPLE of the point that is being made. [quote=Ixtellor]Yes A high Diamond player can carry an account back to diamond. DUH. Also, Lebron James can take any high school team to the state championship and Ronda Rousey can take any high school wrestling team to the state finals --- thats not a big deal.[/quote] And according to this logic, a Gold player should be able to get back to Gold (whether they do or not is another question, but at the very least it's POSSIBLE). [quote=Ixtellor] Can a Gold V easily carry a silver 4 game with consistency? That is like a 200 elo difference in skill. The difference between Gold V and Silver 1 is 50 ELO. Can a gold 5 consistantly carry a silver 1 team? Obviously not. Eventually after a lot of games they will climb, but its very possible it might take them hundreds of games if there true ELO is gold V, that they get stuck in Silver 1 "hell". (I put hell in quotes, because in reality those games are probably the same with only indeciperable differences. [/quote] It's true at closer divisions that there is less discernible difference, like Gold IV to Silver II is roughly the same level with practically negligible difference in skill. But Gold V carrying a Silver IV game? Well, depending on the player, but he should really be able to, because that is quite a distance in Elo. He might lose a few games, but he should win a large majority of his games. If he doesn't, then quite frankly, he's not Gold IV worthy and he lucked out getting it in the first place. [quote=Ixtellor]Also --- Only 20% of LoL players are in gold or higher.[/quote] That's still 3 MILLION players globally. That's 3 million people who can get enough aspects of the game right enough to advanced. 30% (which is actually the more accurate number) is rather misleading to imply it's not a lot of people. [quote=Ixtellor]So even though ELO hell might be fiction, having a 1% player climb out of it, doesn't prove anything.[/quote] It proves that it can be done. Plats and Gold do it too. Bronze is really a breeze for us, tbh. Discounting Golds, Plat+ is already 10% of summoners and that's a million people who can consistently get out of Bronze, Silver and probably Gold. Proves nothing, right? [quote=Ixtellor] Also, League needs a lot more ranks. Apparently at the Diamond 1 level there are 1000 ELO differences between some of those players.[/quote] That's not really the issue we're discussing at hand, but this is somewhat correct, yes. At a level, the tiers are pretty superficial considering it's basically just the overlay over the old Elo system. Honestly though, if you just suck at the game, the most major thing stopping you getting better at the game is yourself. It's really not rocket science.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]If you're not carrying a game with consistency then you should probably stop playing support/tank every game. Go in lane, play aggressive all the time, zone he laners from CS by standing in front of the wave, congratulations you've won the game. There's more to it than that, but I'm not going to list it because my brain isn't a fucking encyclopaedia of knowledge. EDIT: Also statistically if you are silver, you get a gold account and your W/L dips to 40%, that is only 10% less than people who deserve to be in that ELO range.[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=Ixtellor] Any links? I would love to see those 'tests'. [/quote] Well, I don't have any links, but I can tell you that from personal experience, I have lent my account to Bronze and Silver friends who get absolutely decimated in-game most games. And my MMR is at least Gold. Other examples are when you get a horrible mismatch in teams (which is actually common) like 3 silvers, 2 Gold on your team whilst the enemy team has 4 Plats and 1 Bronze and your team gets destroyed. I also myself played against Wickd once while he was smurfing, which basically amounts to the same thing of me smurfing upwards if you actually think about it and I got absolutely destroyed. I did beat Cyanide once, though, but that was because his team sucked. Not to brag, but I was on a Ranked 5s team of Diamonds while I was still in Gold/Plat and I beat Diamonds (I'm pretty sure I won almost every game I ever played with them). Yet at the same time, it wasn't because of me beating the enemy, but rather that I had a good team backing me. I consistently made more mistakes than anyone else in the team and in the end, I had to leave the team because I just wasn't up to scratch and they needed someone better. It's only a gap of 1 tier, but it makes all the difference. [quote=Ixtellor] I have seen people rip apart high level junglers and seen criticism of LCS level junglers. So finding fault in a single replay would prove what?[/quote] It would prove that you don't really know how to jungle as well as you think you do. More so if you are watching LCS-level junglers and still don't understand what you're doing wrong. [quote=Ixtellor] Trick2g has like a 1000 videos of him saying the game is simple and not that complex. So does he understand the game?[/quote] Even Trick throws games hard over poor objective calls. But you have to understand that Trick2g also has CONTEXT to when he says it. At Bronze, Silver and even Gold, they still don't understand the importance of 'objectives over kills'. That's the simple part which low tiers don't understand or forget. The harder part is knowing exactly when it is appropriate to make the call and even looking at pro-level play, there are still game throws over poor objective calls. I'm playing against Plat/Golds and even then so many people don't really seem to understand really obvious map control. [quote=Ixtellor] So you're saying that you are in the top 1% of players in League and that you find it easy to beat people at any position if they aren't in the top 1%? That makes sense I guess. Also, the ELO difference between Plat 1 and Diamond 5 is 50 points. So are you saying that a 50 point ELO difference means you can dominate at any position? (that is what you said)[/quote] Vynertje actually got to Master and there's a huge Elo discrepancy in Diamond from I - V that even you yourself pointed out. Another Diamond I friend of mine told me something similar, that mid-low Diamond is actually not THAT different to high Platinum and amongst Diamonds, to be considered good Elo in Diamond was (at the time) Diamond I, 50LP+. So when Vyn claims to be able to beat any ADC that's not Diamond, it's probably true for the most part.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]Ixitellor - I for one, agree with your logic - We're probably like, two of the five people that truly respect mathematical justification for arguments on this site -_- It should take a player a long time to rank up to their true ELO, if the skill differential between them and their opponents is very small. Another thing that needs to be taken into account is that there is no absolute way to gauge someone's true 'ELO' in this game. Responding to some other questions from earlier... [quote]People said "know when to baron or dragon". This isn't that complicated. The problem in silver league is that people would rather chase kills, so even if the perfect opportunity arises, frequently you can't get your team to go along.[/quote] That's not just what people mean when they say "know when to baron or dragon". You can baron or dragon if your opponents overstay, or if they are just not in the right place to respond to an objective call (literally not on the right side of the map with that objective) [quote=jimmydoggga 2.0] If you're not carrying a game with consistency then you should probably stop playing support/tank every game. Go in lane, play aggressive all the time, zone he laners from CS by standing in front of the wave, congratulations you've won the game. There's more to it than that, but I'm not going to list it because my brain isn't a fucking encyclopaedia of knowledge. [/quote] I mean, it's still pretty easy to carry as support/tank; Just repeatedly catch a carry, until you win the game.[/quote]

[quote=Blian]1., I'm not quite sure if objective controll matters a lot in low ELO. I mean for e.g. if the enemy team leading let's say 34-10 but your minion waves are pushed up, their jungle is warded, you have 3 dragon buff and all the Tier 2 towers are down your peepz will still think the game is over just because they have more kills. In some cases you can find 1 or 2 players in your team who can understand the importance of minions and objectives but I think it does really start to appear in Gold or higher. 2., I agree with the fact that tanks can carry easier in lower ELO. Especially whenever your team finally realize you soak up all the dmg in the front line plus can do some peeling as well or even locking down their ADC/APC. Also it helps a lot if you pick a tank with lots of CC such as [[Nautilus]].[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend][quote=utopus]Ixitellor - I for one, agree with your logic - We're probably like, two of the five people that truly respect mathematical justification for arguments on this site -_- It should take a player a long time to rank up to their true ELO, if the skill differential between them and their opponents is very small. Another thing that needs to be taken into account is that there is no absolute way to gauge someone's true 'ELO' in this game.[/quote]Depends on your definition of rank. The thing you describe is the same for everyone on the ladder, so it balances itself out. Like I wrote earlier.[/quote]