What are jungle buffs?

[quote=Embracing]It IS ruinous simply because the enemy will hit level two and zone you out from creeps, severely ruining one or two waves of experience. They then have control over minions and can easily mass up minions to shove up and make you behind. No one actually gives a shit about ganks for the whole duration of a lane being pushed. Being ganked only occurs during specific times when the jungler's actualy there. It's not like "laners don't push cuz junglers can gank." Laners DO push, but they rely on their instinct and warding to react in time. It's also extremely obvious that your jungler started near your top lane buff when they know that you leashed for them from your slow coming to lane / possible loss of hp. At higher levels of play abusing minute advantages is common. At lower levels of play people just don't abuse their pressure to the maximun, which is why people don't recognize how harmful it is for junglers to start at a buff near a solo lane. Furthermore (though not as important), the jungler gets a slower clear and then let's the enemy jungler remain one step ahead. Starting at the buff near your duo lane has been optimal since leashing existed. The only reasons to start at any other buff would be fear of counterjungling and a different strategy like a 3 man dive in a 2v1 lane. Now let's stop arguing over a point that's been proven to be true for almost a whole season.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]Like Embracing said, it's not about behind in experience [i]while[/i] you're both level 1, it's about the enemy top laner hitting level 2 before you and being able to abuse that (though yes, some champs do it better than others). Level 2 cheese can be enough to force you back early or even get you killed. That doesn't mean it always will, but it does mean you don't want to be leashing for your jungler when you know that there's a possibility of this happening just because you're helping out (the [[Riven]] with red pot that you mention is a perfect example of someone you don't want this to happen against, btw).[/quote]

[quote=SkidmarkD]Imagine the balance of the game as just that, a balance. In silver, it takes a fuckwad of mistakes to tip the scales. Lets say a fuckwad is about 10 ton. In diamond, one small feather is all it takes to tip it.[/quote]

[quote=Patch]I'm just kind of surprised that top players in diamond are getting easily countered because they're 1/3 a minion wave behind. Does champion selection, item choice and other factors literally not mean anything? What about counter-picking? Are you seriously zoned by the second minion wave because they hit level 2 first, and it makes you literally unable to keep up in CS, even though they will, by the same logic of being ahead in minions, be pushing towards your tower where you are safest (and most high ranked players can farm competently). What champion exactly is causing you all this trouble that you didn't ban/counter pick? Sure someone like Riven will wreck your shit, but by then she's pushing and you can stand safely back. And if they did pick someone like Riven, you should have picked someone capable against her, no? Or at least someone who can farm despite the massive early advantage such a champion would have regardless of level. And EVEN THEN. Even if you AREN'T late to your lane, one person has to reach level 2 first. One person has to be stronger at level 1 harass for the first minion wave. One person has to clear faster. Maybe I'm just 'low ranked' or some shit, but personally if I was expecting players to compete on the top level I'd hope they can handle their lane while being behind 2 CS.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]It's not being countered. It's losing pressure. No one ever said champ select, item choice, and other factors didn't matter. Counter-picking of course does matter, but if you countered the enemy pick and he had a level on you early that restricts you from pressuring him. And assuming that we're talking about solo queue no one would go all the way to prepare a top lane buff start by asking the top laner to pick a safe pick etc. @standing back from lane: The WHOLE point of this argument was that "standing back" causes your lane to completely fuck up. They slightly push and get a level advantage. You can either then respond by not pushing, where you're forced to last hit at tower, lose creeps, tower hp, and the wave (shoves back), or try to push, where the enemy has all his opportunity to kill / burst / screw your lane up. @hitting level 2 first: lol that's not an issue if they both hit it at similar times... we're arguing why starting a top lane buff is inferior, and the point still stands. You sacrifice too much to ensure a top lane start to be succesfull. Bottom buff start is ALWAYS safer. And seriously, jungling has been done this way since leashing began. I don't see any merit in arguing about this.[/quote]

[quote=Patch]Because it's a choice between giving your jungler a more solid start and your top lane a more even chance. Just from reading the thread I was given the impression you couldn't expect to win top lane if you hard leashed. But if you want it dropped, its dropped.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100][quote=Patch] Just from reading the thread I was given the impression you couldn't expect to win top lane if you hard leashed. [/quote] It's not quite that simple, no, but it is (or was) still much riskier than having bot lane help out, which is why that became the standard.[/quote]