Jax Build Guide : [6.17] Jax Top - Now it's his turn :: League of Legends Strategy Builds

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(79) |

Thank you very much for the guide. This is the best guide I've seen so far.I bought a skin for Jax and tought wow she will be fun I'll main her for sure, well long story short I sucked, HARD. I was giving up on Jax and tought come on, I gotta give her another shot.So I searched for a guide I found your guide but tought sooooooo loooooong so I ˝took˝ another build. It didn't go well so I went back to your build and I took some time to read it.My first tought after reading this was ˝I love you, I love you so so much˝.I love how you took the time and effort to make this guide. I can see that you have a passion for Jax.Your guide is the best of all the guides i saw for ALL champions. The section for counters is very good..... WAIT ALL SECTIONS ARE GREAT AND WELL TOUGHT OF! 11/10 GJ Keep it up! (Sorry for the grammar mistakes english is not my native laungage)

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(16) |

Hi @Thalia Kael I really appreciated that.

I notice you are a Shyvana main, you might like my Shyvana guide too, though I expect you know everything in it already...

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(16) |

That's good to hear, thank you for the positive feedback. Other people who have tried it are also having some nice results I hear :)

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(1) |

love it try it out 20/3/15

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(16) |

The guide is now updated to offer a first build as 'standard'.

The build I was formerly recommending is now offered as an alternative build, called 'my build' :) This section of the guide provides an explanation and detailed comparison of my build with the standard build, and explains the pros and cons of mine - I think mine is better overall, but anyone reading the guide can make their own choice.

Runes also slightly updated, as I agree with Vapora Dark's comment that flat CDR runes are not as helpful as I thought in the early laning because Jax is mana limited at early levels.

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(16) |

It's going to take a while to go through your detailed reasons @Vapora Dark. You have commented in great detail, I don't want this to turn into a pernickety line-by-line debate but you have taken time to comment, and some of the things you have said do require a response.

I am keeping the build under constant review, as obviously I want to recommend a good or even optimal build in my guides, it would be pretty dumb to do anything else.

I will need to test all of the points you have made carefully. Some of the points seem to be good ones, which should lead to revision of the guide in due course.

As well as testing things in-game, I do the math (carefully, taking into account everything in a build including champion level, runes, masteries, ability combos, CDR, item passives, enemy defences etc). It's going to take a while to finish doing the math for Jax, so I'll come back to that in a few days.

As an initial response on , I agree with you that is the best lifesteal item on Jax. More generally I think most people would agree that he does well with lifesteal.

Here are the reasons why is a viable alternative in a Jax build:

Although Jax deals mixed damage, the largest fraction of his damage is physical damage. Especially in a build which does not take AP, he will be doing around 70-75% physical damage.
Jax damage scales hardest with AD, and Death's Dance gives the joint highest AD of a single item, for a reasonably gold efficient cost.
Death's Dance heals on the physical damage on Jax's Q (a single target ability) and E (reduced because AoE) as well as the auto-attack underlying his W.
Death's Dance heals from the bonus physical damage dealt by a Sheen item.
Death's Dance also heals from the damage Jax does to turrets, which is pretty nice.
Although the damage spreading passive is not as defensive as it might sound (no help at all against poke) it works well with Jax's increasing attack speed in a prolonged fight, as he will heal faster later in the fight. It can also work with the dodge and stun on his E, he will heal up from Death's Dance throughout the dodge and stun period, so offsetting the damage spreading from the opponent's initial burst.
Most importantly the damage spreading can buy him enough time - a 'grace period' - to get the stun off on his opponent, so it helps him win real fights.
If short of early gold, Death's Dance gives high damage, CDR and lifesteal all in one item - so that your second and third items can be fully defensive items. So it fits into a build path in a practical way, building out of other items which are helpful in early laning. To put that a different way: its component parts give good benefits even before you have the full item.
High AD increases the armor on Jax's R.
Jax works well with any strong lifesteal/spellvamp item, because he has such high resistances when R is active.

On this basis I don't see how you can say Death's Dance is a "wrong" or "bad" item on Jax. It's not necessarily optimal for lifesteal - Hextech Gunblade is better - but it's a good second choice, where you are either struggling for gold or you need higher AD.

Once I'm in a position to do the detailed math, I'll provide math to back this up.

Further responses to follow...

0

(16) |

Thanks for visiting Vapora Dark, I've noticed from game history that you are Joxuu's buddy.

2

(625) |

I wouldn't say "buddy" so much as "acquaintance" (no offense Joxuu :>). We don't talk much but we interact regularly through MOBAFire Inhouses. A non-existent friendship is not why I downvoted, I was linked to it by another friend and didn't think a guide like this should represent MOBAFire as the #1 rated guide. I was prompted to give a reason through comment to vote, and you have my reason. I agree with everything Joxuu said except maybe building Guinsoo's 3rd since I think after 2 damage items you should really be looking into getting tanky, but I could be wrong.

For the record, here's everything you'd have to change from your cheat sheet before I would consider removing my downvote:

- HP/lvl seals are only good in AP matchups, otherwise you should be running armor seals.

- Flat CDR glyphs aren't good since early-game you won't be spamming spells anyway due to mana constraints. The 0.8 - 0.25 second faster uptimes on your spells will rarely help you at that stage of the game. I think scaling CDR glyphs are fine, but most people would use scaling MR in AD matchups, and flat MR in AP matchups (which I would definitely use).

- Armor quints should never really be a thing, your options are AS quints and AD quints. Most people would argue AS is better, but there's room for discussion and either way AD quints are fine too.

- Ionians are awful to rush. They're okay to build on , but most people would argue that and are both better. But even if we say they're good, you definitely don't rush them considering in terms of combat stats, it's 10% CDR for 600 gold, or 900 if you don't already have boots.

- and are both awful on since both benefit from specifically physical damage while 's damage is pretty heavily mixed.

- As such, is never an option, and definitely not an early core item.

- is not good on . It doesn't matter how good he is at stacking it, he has no mana issues that force him to build that much mana. The only champions that build are the ones that can't live without it (I can only think of as someone who has to build it every game), and because he directly scales off of mana. And even if it were good, you build it way too late, it's meant to be rushed so you can get the powerspike ASAP.

- is also awful since you deal so much magic damage and it only aids physical damage.

- isn't good since as good as it is in lane vs AP, it's not so strong in team-fights and it delays or even prevents you building your core damage items. I'll acknowledge I could be wrong about this since it got recently buffed and maybe it's just currently underrated and will soon be discovered to be a strong item on , but for now this is both my opinion and the general consensus.

- Speaking of core damage items, passing on was an option last patch, but definitely not this one. When the 8 highest win rate jax builds all have rush in common (http://i.imgur.com/26jWdGO.png), you have no excuse to not have it as a core item, let alone not to include it in any way in your cheat sheet.

- is awful.

- is awful.

- Since no longer removes or , I can't see being an option. Maybe it could very very situationally be good, but generally you would just build to deal with CC since you should be tanky enough to withstand most CC's without needing to get rid of them altogether. It's definitely not an item you build every time you're against full AP. would be better for that, but I don't think that item's good on either. I would build if you really want more MR.

- While I personally like the idea of and think it can be good (and I'm alone in thinking that), you need a lot of resistances to back it up. The only full build you have in is one where your only resistances item besides is . There are definitely better items to build in that situation.

- is a very popular item on and you don't even list it in the cheat sheet. While I might be willing to accept that there are better items to build, your argument for not building it is weak.

"Sterak's adds about +30 base attack damage at level 18 to your auto-attacks and any Sheen item you have (Trinity Force / Iceborn Gauntlet) but that damage is not counted in your Q, E and R abilities which scale off bonus attack damage only, making it a very lame damage item overall - think of it as about +20 damage on average."

It's +30 constant, and +60 when the passive triggers. And the fact that it's +30 base AD rather than bonus AD is actually a good thing for , since his AD ratios are 100% on 6 second CD Q, and 50-100% on 8 second CD E. has a 200% AD ratio on a 1.5 second CD, meaning at level 18 it adds +60/+120 damage to every single proc, or +90/+180 if you count the base AD buff applying to your auto-attack. With you actually gain more damage from +x base AD than you do from +x bonus AD, which is not the case for ADC's that often build to counter burst, or someone like or who were often building it some patches ago too and may still build it from time to time.

"The problem with the Sterak's Fury passive shield is that the activation is outside your control, it activates only after you have been bursted down and that's a situation when you will probably die anyhow from overkill, or when the shield wears off. It is useless against poke damage."

It doesn't just activate from burst damage, it also activates just from tanking the average DPS you would receive in a team-fight. Even duelling an ADC it would proc (if the fight even gets that close). It's almost always going to proc whenever you need it to, the only situation it might not is when duelling some super low damage tank.

"Except against those specific opponents, a simple Warmog's Armor gives much better defence, even if you don't have 3000 health to activate its passive. Warmog's is similar to having the Sterak's Gage shield active all the time."

"Warmog's is similar to having the Sterak's Gage shield activate all the time." In terms of HP, yes that's true, but to say Warmog's gives much better defense is false. There are situations where would be tankier because of how rapidly the Sterak's shield decays, and there are others where is a lot tankier because the shield alone is bigger than 's entire HP, and then you factor in 's HP and it's definitely tankier. In general you could say they're about even in terms of tankiness, but you also have to consider that gives much more damage, on top of being 150 gold cheaper. just simply gives you a lot more bang for your buck, even taking the CDR and HP regen of Warmog's into consideration.

I could understand delaying or even not building in favour of other defensive items (though after doing all the maths just now I'm leaning towards building it 3rd or 4th), but you need to better justify your decision to not even list it as an option, and even then you might be wrong.

- I don't know if it's a mistake or not, but you max W at level 10 and instead take a point in Q at level 9. There's no point in not maxing W at level 9.

- If for some reason you were to go 18 in cunning, > .

- Don't go 18 in cunning. > . While TLD might be a little stronger in lane (though not stronger than , making it pretty obsolete), late-game just 2 full stack Fervor procs out-damage the whole 15 second CD TLD proc, and when you add onto that the fact that you'll be dishing out a lot more than just 2 full stack procs, as well as the damage you'd deal from building up to the 8 stacks (which takes just 4 auto-attacks, or more realistically 3 since using a spell gives you 2 free stacks and you'll almost always use a spell before reaching full stacks), both your short-term and long-term damage are always going to be higher with than with .

I'm willing to help further if you fix all the things I just listed, but if you don't then I'll keep my downvote and be on my merry way.

And there's no point in faking a positive attitude towards criticism from high Elo players like Joxuu if you're going to "respectfully agree to disagree" with almost everything while knowing full well that you don't have anywhere near the same degree of experience in League that he does so if your opinion differs from his that's probably because it's wrong. Sometimes controversial builds or playstyles are discovered to actually be underrated and optimal over time, but everything about your guide reeks of controversial, not just a single item or rune, which points towards it being the product of an inexperienced opinion rather than that of an open mind.

A huge part of becoming better at League is swallowing your pride and accepting that some (or a lot) of your initial views could be wrong. As such it's also a huge part of writing a good guide, since otherwise the things you advise your readers are going to be completely wrong. I was guilty of it too 3-4 years ago, but now I make sure I know my **** about a champion before I play them, let alone write a guide on them. And I'm sorry to say that while I can't comment on the quality of your gameplay with , I can safely say your knowledge of the champion is pretty bad. That's not an insult, it's a fact, and I only say it because it's the only way for you to learn and improve your guide.

1

(16) |

The item win rate data you posted, where is this from please? I can't find equivalent statistics.

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Quoted:

I don't know if it's a mistake or not, but you max W at level 10 and instead take a point in Q at level 9. There's no point in not maxing W at level 9.

Thank you, that was a mistake, now fixed.

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Quoted:

It's +30 constant, and +60 when the passive triggers. And the fact that it's +30 base AD rather than bonus AD is actually a good thing for Jax, since his AD ratios are 100% on 6 second CD Q, and 50-100% on 8 second CD E.

@Vapora Dark your understanding of the way the item works with Jax ability ratios seems incorrect. Like other champions whose abilities scale with bonus AD, Sterak's Gage has no effect on Jax' ability damage. That's because its AD increases base AD not bonus AD. But the abilities scale with bonus AD only. (In contrast there are some champions, like Irelia - see - whose abilities scale with total AD, and those champions benefit more strongly from Steraks.)

Meanwhile I am looking again hard at Sterak's Gage, given the win rate stats you have produced - it seems I may be wrongly biased against it. On Jax its shield can have a similar benefit to Death's Dance, ie. buying him the time he needs to stun or kill. And its base AD obviously helps basic attacks, W, and the Sheen effect.

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(625) |

If you want to hear my reason for downvoting just read Joxuu's comments. Your understanding of Jax is completely wrong, as it is for other aspects of the game.

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(16) |

is not the only way to have high attack speed, for example Wit's End gives the same attack speed, Phantom Dancer gives more, and Youmuu's gives the same when its active is activated. Youmuu's is a good and sensible item because you don't need high attack speed the whole time, for example you don't need it for CSing after around level 6. (I agree with you that early game attack speed is pretty handy if you are forced to CS under your tower early.)

As I say I am keeping an open mind on Trinity Force until I have tested it some more in 6.11, but at present I view it as an excessively costly way to have attack speed, and the other benefits it gives, although all good, do not seem worth 2500 gold. (You can have 40% attack speed just from a Recurve bow and a Dagger.)

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does not take long to stack on Jax, he is one of the fastest champions to stack it fully. When his R passive procs (every third hit, even when farming) it adds another stack. He uses W all the time, it has low cost and low cooldown, so that also helps to stack it quickly. And as explained in the guide, it's a good and gold-efficient item even when not fully stacked - even at around 500 stacks it becomes the cheapest AD in the game.

It's difficult to understand why you have such entrenched views on this subject, when you don't even play Jax that much, so far as I can see from your profile. (In your last 50 games or so, as far as I can see, you have not even played any game with or against a Jax!) Gold spent on a mana item is not wasted, Jax does much better in early game if he has unlimited mana, for the same reason that is the best starting item, and for the same reason that he is a God tier champion in URF mode.

It's difficult to understand your view that a Tear gives "no combat stats". Mana is a combat stat the same way that health is. Jax has 4 extremely powerful abilities in combat, two are low cooldown and we are following a CDR build, so he wants to be able to have enough mana to use them frequently, and he wants enough mana in reserve to be able to use all 4 in an all-in.

Here is a (somewhat old) Reddit discussion of the pros and cons of a Tear of the Goddess -> Manamune build. Since the Patch 6.9 rework, there are additional advantages to it.

If this boils down to you saying 'I prefer an attack speed build', that's OK, that's a view which some people have and I can respect that, without agreeing with it. The guide covers that type of build for people who want it. Or there are at least 10 other easily accessible guides on Mobafire covering that build.

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Cheat sheet for items is tidied up somewhat, I can look at this some more. It's intended that all the builds should line up vertically making it obvious for example what Caulfield's Warhammer builds into in the various final builds. It can maybe have a different & more messy appearance on some screens, currently it looks good on my PC screen and on my phone but I'll try to check a few more.

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(336) |

components are good even if the item takes quite a bit of gold. You also say you have passive to cover for attack speed but you can't assume to always run at 8 stacks. You need AS to ramp up passive.

Problem with is it takes too long to stack and you would be forced to waste 750 gold on just a mana item that gives no combat stats for laner such as who is already weak in 1v1 early game.

I mean cheat sheet for items that is messy.

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(16) |

Thank you, I'll take all of that into consideration, and it's not so much disagreement as I feared! I very much appreciate comments from other experienced guide authors and high elo players in general, and you are obviously both ...

Do you mean the cheat sheet or the actual Item chapter is messy? I think you are saying two different things, like the cheat sheet has too many options, and the Item chapter covers too many items?

How the cheat sheet is intended to work is to show one core mid-game build (that's Caulfields Warhammer, boots, Chain Vest, tear) and then a number of different options to build that out into for finishing the build. I plan to add: (1) a chapter covering a standard recommended build path for people who just want 1 build to follow, (2) a chapter called 'Adapting your build to the game' which better explains different options and when you might decide to take situational items, including departure from the suggested 'core' items. An AP opponent in lane is the most obvious situation.

I think I might remove the Guinsoo's build from the cheat sheet, and have a separate chapter in the guide covering only Guinsoo's builds which is a totally different build path. That should be clearer and less confusing.

I think we are not going to agree just now about new Trinity Force. I don't see two attack speed items as necessary on Jax in lane (for reasons which I've tried to explain in a new spoiler I added to the guide today, basically his attack speed is already naturally high so extra attack speed makes for diminishing returns). However, another commenter J3r3myDE has also said 'Trinity Force' today. So I will keep an open mind for now, I need to try it out myself in a few Patch 6.11 games, and maybe modify my opinion in light of that.

Another big problem with Trinity Force is its cost. Jax is not usually rich in gold in the early game, unless he roams / teleports and gets lucky with kills. My guide - as I hope is clear - is looking at gold-efficient builds, and I think 2 completed items is always stronger than 1.5 items. Is there is a reason why you don't like in its current form, I think it's really good and incredibly gold efficient way to have attack speed and MR.

I totally agree with you that "something XXX + Hextech Gunblade" gives all necessary stats for solo lane 1v1. But I see that first something XXX as being something other than Trinity Force, Youmuu's being the main contender here, or Wit's End against AP. (Again, gold.)

The general recommended build does go full tank after that, except that it finally finishes with the Manamune. DMP + Spirit Visage is one way to go full tank, Warmog's + GA is another. I also really like Titanic Hydra or Frozen Mallet if they can be fitted in somehow (This Diamond guide has a good explanation of why Titanic Hydra is so good on Jax, which I totally agree with).

You have not said why you disagree heavily with , or AD in general on Jax?

The builds are not messy or random, all are aiming for consistent elements, including 20% or 30% CDR from items (most builds shown have 30%), 12-15% lifesteal, AD or equivalent damage from on-hit or Sheen effects or both, 800-1000 health, balanced resistances, and some armor pen if possible, and low gold cost for completed items as much as possible. Maybe this needs better explanation, and a more logical flow from the core build to the final build.

AS Quints specifically to help farming under tower, I hadn't thought of: thank you that seems to be a very good point - though I guess buying a on first back could cover that just as effectively, from that time onwards?

Maybe CDR runes will not so necessary with a Trinity Force build, I will keep that under review but it depends on whether new Trinity Force becomes a core item.

A higher attack speed build could favour as a mastery more, I agree.

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Did you have any suggestions on match-ups?

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(336) |

In general I think the item chapter is way too messy. In my opinion you should only have 1-2 generally always good builds for the target audience which you mentioned to be bronze-gold. Instead of 7 different builds, I'd recommend having 1 (sometimes 2 is ok) general builds and then use a situational items tab where you mention situational items.

I will start with items. I think is the best item in the game for . The common problem with has been lack of attack speed in early game which is why some players even got early game. New gives you 40% attack speed which means you will have much smoother build now.

Trinity Force -> Hextech Gunblade gives all the necessary stats you will ever need for solo lane 1v1. Third item into full tank is the way to go imo. Maybe even full tank after Trinity + Hextech if you don't have any other front line.

I disagree heavily with going and all the builds are messy and seem random. The only items I can agree mentioning (besides tf + hextech) are and .

For runes I would take magic resist glyphs and attack speed quints. AS Quints allow you to attack twice between turret shots which makes farming under tower much easier.

For masteries I would take Fervor because 's damage comes from consistent auto attacks. Thunderlord's doesn't do that much.

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(16) |

@Joxuu: Constructive disagreement is good, it should lead to a better guide in the end. Can you give specific reasons or suggest a Jax top lane build guide which is better in your opinion.

Please also bear in mind that I would estimate the target audience for this guide is Gold-Silver-Bronze, that's to say the big majority of players, and judging by feedback the build seems to be working well for people who have tried it. Things are fairly different at Diamond 2 and above: I note you are in the top 0.25% of players worldwide... (As a generalisation, I guess that Diamond players either don't follow other people's guides at all, or have the sense to dip in and out of them and take the ideas they like, but ignore the rest?)

I'm actually very interested in other people's opinions on match-ups, as that's a section I'm currently working on improving. So I'd be really grateful for your suggestions on that. Especially from the perspective of Mao'Kai, Poppy, Malphite, Nautilus, Shen, Renekton who currently do not feature and need to be added.

[6.17] Jax Top - Now it's his turn

[6.17] Jax Top - Now it's his turn

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