7.4 Tier List + AMA

[quote=Wayne3100]As I said, I was just trying to point out the issues that people generally have with her. I already said I believe she should be higher and I personally have success with her too, but she does have some issues that others (mostly the resourceless champs) will never encounter. On a completely unrelated note, I'm using something like 4-21-5 right now because I don't feel the AP from offense tree is that great (though to be fair I still generally get quite some AP in my build from stuff like [[Abyssal Scepter]], [[Liandry's Torment]], [[Rylai's Crystal Scepter]], [[Zhonya's Hourglass]] etc.). RIP magic pen mastery :([/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender][quote=Wayne3100] ^ Top lane [[Elise]] deserves to be higher (I'd probably put her in Tier 2 somewhere), but at the same time it's not weird that people don't like her too much anymore. With so many tanky top laners with (natural) sustain/regen being popular atm, it can be tough for her to poke effectively given the fact that she's restricted in doing so by her mana pool. On top of that, last hitting with her auto attack is pretty tough, especially if she's pushed back to her tower. I personally have a lot of success with her, but unlike some other champions she does have some specific things people dislike about her, is what I'm saying :P [/quote] I don't know how people normally do their lists, but I weighted elise a tad bit lower because her strength is wasted in top comparatively to jungle 99% of the time. She doesn't have good matchups against the tier1 tops and doesn't outscale many in tier 2. All these added up put her where she is. That being said she was still a bit low so I have moved her a bit.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender][quote=Mooninites] [quote=H4xDefender] [quote=Mooninites] [quote=H4xDefender] [quote=Khazem] [quote=H4xDefender] It leans towards high elo soloqueue + competitive. [/quote] i dont think you can make 1 tier list for both.. they're 2 entirely different things [/quote] things that are good in higher levels of solo queue tend to come from the competitive scene. its an inbetween, not trying to be accurate for both. [/quote] Pretty much all of the meta game comes from the competitive scene. Most picks and bans are because those are champions that are seen as strong because they're picked or banned in lcs. There are still major differences [/quote] the way they are played are different. but the champions that are strong are pretty much the same. [/quote] You have a point, but look at something like Jungle [[Kha'Zix]] really monstrous in solo queue, but not that great in competitive play. Jungle [[udyr]] was pretty good in solo queue near the end of S3 but never really panned out in competitive play. Or something like [[Vayne]], she's not an amazing pick in competitive play, but in solo queue she's really strong because of her ability to hard carry and most teams aren't coordinated to close out games fast enough in solo queue [/quote] i'm well aware of this and that it isnt perfect, but i've just rolled with it and I wanted the list to be this way.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender][quote=PsiGuard] Honestly I think this is the best tier list I've ever seen - I really like the three tier setup. The only thing I don't agree with (or perhaps don't understand) is why Quinn is in tier 2 ahead of the likes of Twitch and Graves. I've seen Twitch and Graves occasionally in competitive and there are a decent amount in soloqueue (from watching streams, I know I'm not high elo), whereas I've seen more Quinn top laners than ADCs and I don't recall ever seeing her competitively played. Could you elaborate a bit on why you put her in tier 2? [/quote] I discovered quinn has a very strong lane, even in bottom and has the damage and tools to kite and kill the megatanks that are popular now lategame in a timely manner, whereas twitch and graves really don't. The difference between them isn't very large though. Quinn is too difficult to learn for most pros to only use as a tier2 pick which is why you never see her.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender][quote=SOAC Bas] Mid Lane Changes: I don't think a single mainline mid laner will disagree with your tier 1 and most of your tier 2. There are a few minor changes you need to make though [[Annie]], [[Cassiopeia]], and [[Jayce]] are tier 3 at best all three have major flaws. Jayce gets stomped by most semi intelligent mids. He can be strong in specific counter picks, but he is still pretty poor all the way around. Cass has issues and needs to be played perfectly to really be strong against any tier 2 champs and tier 1. Annie is almost always support now and when she is mid she is pretty much zoned out of everything unless you are facing a really bad mid laner. [[Vladimir]] should be tier 2. He is ridiculously strong in both solo and competitive play (voyboy). He has some issues, but he is definitely able to hang with any of the rest of tier 2. [[Katarina]] and [[Swain]] are tier 2 for solo queue. [[katarina]] has seen in an increase in team play as well. She is essentially the ap yasuo. You build a team around making her strong. [[Karma]] mid almost never played simply because she has nothing of value outside of lane bullying. She can't really snowball, and she can't really take down most of the top tier without consistent jungle contributions. Don't get me wrong her early game is pretty awesome and her jungle siege is really high, but her negatives severely outweigh her positives and she should be tier 3 mid. [/quote] I've been playing a lot of jayce. The champions that he struggles against arent as commonly seen middle, and the nature of jayce only needing a few well placed EQ combos to successfully push a team off a turret, as well as his insane turret taking speed, decent build options and ability to go top instead and bait a counterpick sneak him into tier 2 for me. Cassiopeia is one of the hardest counterpicks in the game, and her ult is just wayyyyy too high impact for her not to be in tier 2, even if it is near the back. Cassio is very difficult to play effectively which I took into account, but the sheer amount of things that can be done with her ult, and the amount of pressure she draws middle cannot be ignored. Annie is very hit or miss. She dumpsters HARD as a counterpick, and she usually can fool the other time into thinking she is bottom, resulting in some easier lanes, whether she is going mid or bot. This combined with her devastating intiation, and the guarantee of her getting enough damage to seriously threaten squishies as opposed to support where she usually is forced to build utility items first is enough to land her in tier 2 for me. She has some sick roam too. Katarina is way too hit or miss. All the enemy needs to do is shove and follow her if she tries to roam anyway and shes useless. If she doesn't get multiple kills in lane phase she is very weak later, unless your team has absolutely no CC. Swain is super blue reliant and difficult to cs with when he gets shoved into tower... and unfortunately due to his extremely bad waveclear he is often csing under tower while his lane opponent pressures the map. Very easy to gank as well, and he doesn't exactly scale well into lategame. This isn't completely based off solo queue. Karma either shoves lane super hard and roams, or you eat some harass and then she roams. Or she sets up a gank with her gobs of CC and speedup, kills you, and then roams. She sort of functions like an AP lulu later, trading some utility for damage.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender]Added rammus and ryze.[/quote]

[quote=XeresAce]Definitely much better placement of elise :3 Also, sorry for going off topic but @wayne, I go 9 in the offense tree to get the extra AD :'D helps so much with trading and last hitting I find. Also, how come zac is so high? havent seen him played top in like 6 months[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]Oh wtf you're a genius, I'm gonna try that. I was considering trying a guide I saw which recommends AD quints to solve that issue, but this seems like a more logical alternative :P As for [[Zac]], I can sorta see why he's placed in that position even though I personally play him a lot less than I used to (mained him for most of season 3). He obviously isn't as ridiculous as he used to be, but he still has good poke in lane (on a relatively low cooldown), good sustain from his passive and insane teamfighting because of the high base damages from his abilities + all the disruption that his kit provides. I'd say his laning phase against aggressive opponents who are strong in the early game is weak after the nerfs though. Hard to tell where I'd place him myself. I still do pretty well with him whenever I pick him, but I feel part of that is just my experience with the champ and/or enemies misplaying (like not stepping on my health chunks properly, for example).[/quote]

[quote=utopus][quote=PsiGuard] Honestly I think this is the best tier list I've ever seen - I really like the three tier setup. The only thing I don't agree with (or perhaps don't understand) is why Quinn is in tier 2 ahead of the likes of Twitch and Graves. I've seen Twitch and Graves occasionally in competitive and there are a decent amount in soloqueue (from watching streams, I know I'm not high elo), whereas I've seen more Quinn top laners than ADCs and I don't recall ever seeing her competitively played. Could you elaborate a bit on why you put her in tier 2? [/quote] Sticky it? :>[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender][quote=Wayne3100] Oh wtf you're a genius, I'm gonna try that. I was considering trying a guide I saw which recommends AD quints to solve that issue, but this seems like a more logical alternative :P As for [[Zac]], I can sorta see why he's placed in that position even though I personally play him a lot less than I used to (mained him for most of season 3). He obviously isn't as ridiculous as he used to be, but he still has good poke in lane (on a relatively low cooldown), good sustain from his passive and insane teamfighting because of the high base damages from his abilities + all the disruption that his kit provides. I'd say his laning phase against aggressive opponents who are strong in the early game is weak after the nerfs though. Hard to tell where I'd place him myself. I still do pretty well with him whenever I pick him, but I feel part of that is just my experience with the champ and/or enemies misplaying (like not stepping on my health chunks properly, for example). [/quote] Yep thats basically it. Hes about as strong as mundo in fights, but its harder for him to get there because of his weak lane.[/quote]