Alright so Vayne...

[quote=NicknameMy]I would level all 3 spells at lvl 1-3 because [[Vayne]] can combine all spells pretty well.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]standard skill sequence up to 6 is like this [abilities=qeweer champion="vayne"] edit: I should ask Matt to adjust this to not show the latter levels.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]Duff, an enemy champion that allows Vayne to hit them three times in lane is retarded. Unless you have attack speed quints and marks, you aren't going to be able to hit them 3 times. Just like relying on Condemn is a bad idea because most people aren't stupid enough to sit near a wall, most people will not let Vayne hit them 3 times. Tumble is the safest skill to level up first, as it is guaranteed damage every single time. Unlike Condemn, it will not throw your target away, unlike Silver Bolts, it does not require you to open yourself up to harass as you desperately try and get in 3 shots for the flat and % damage. Tumble is just: pop Q, hit, retreat. Pop Q, hit, retreat.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@DuffTime: That'sssss a very nice [i][b]opinion[/b][/i] you have there. Would be a ssssshame if anything were to happen to it. If you think the base damage is worth anything, you're living in a dream world. [[Silver Bolts]] only procs once every 3 hits. 60 damage at rank 5 leads to 20 damage per hit mathematically - Peanuts With laning and positioning factored in, [[Condemn]] can accomplish substantially more then Silver Bolts. 185 damage from Condemn is equivalent to 2+ Silver Bolt procs (even counting % health damage AND base damage), because it scales with AD. The crowd-control utility of Condemn is also more potent and versatile for laning and skirmishes then Silver Bolts. Vayne's early game is that of an assassin - It hinges on your ability to create a high burst combo, not good steady DPS. [[Silver Bolts]] is raised last for the same reason Twisted Fate raises [[Pick a Card]] over [[Stacked Deck]]. The "every X hits" feature makes it an unreliable source of damage. Though, note I'm only comparing that feature, SB is infinitely better then SD for its true damage and late-game scaling potential.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I hate to be "That guy" that I seem to always be on these forum threads, but that's simply not true. Vaynes kit can easily allow you to land 3 consecutive hits, and I actually do run 10% attack speed in my runes when I play Vayne. The only reason NA doesn't think Vayne is as good as other countries thinks she is, is because of the poor choice of skilling in regards to skills. If the skilling was done properly, then Vayne would be considered one of the top carries. Right now people lean towards Caitlyn, because she's a safe AFK farmer. Personally Jhoi, when I'm playing Vayne, I'm going to hit you 3 times. If you try to stop me then you're gonna most likely get nailed into a wall and take the three hits anyway. Either that, or every time I walk forward you either have to kill me, or walk back. You're gonna lose creeps once I see that. Enemy players don't have the luxury of using the bush against Vayne, it's the easiest way of simply dying. Even more so because I tend to ward the bush so it's legitimately not an option. So they have to stay in the middle of the lane, and take hits to farm or kill me when I harass.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Again Jun, you talk about not stating opinions, yet your posts are riddled with opinions from top to bottom. I play Vayne as a steady-burst-damage champion. I do both burst and steady damage output. Your way can only do burst. It is inferior. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care what JunSupport thinks of the way I build Vayne. Ask any of the players who have seen me play Vayne, and the one thing they will say is I deal REAL damage. Most of them will tell you they've never seen a carry hit that hard before.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]That'sssss a very nice [i]opinion[/i] you have there. Would be a ssssshame if anything were to happen to it. It's not an opinion when it's supported by actual high-elo strategies and playstyles These are statements about a game - They stay as facts so long as current patch supports it. That's the best way to play Vayne - and you're not the best. Yours is an opinion because the best disagree - If you want to disagree with the best, become the best. If you aren't good enough, convince someone else to play your way and become the best. If your way is really better, someone would be using it in high elo or will be using it in high elo - Right now they're not. So you'd better start campaigning. [color=#ffff00]Until you can support your statement with actual events in high-elo - Your statements are opinions, mine are not.[/color] Even if mine sound like opinions, they're not because they're all backed-up. Facts about game strategy can change, but they stay facts until they change.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Right, you can't back up your opinions anymore with any more flowery number facts, so you run to the opinions of the high elo players who don't know how to play Vayne either, and claim because a 2k Elo player said, it's a fact. Which is a load of horse shit, and you're trying to use it to "Prove your argument right." Because more than you care about the game, you care about being right. You just want to -win- every single discussion about League of Legends. Which is fine, that's JunSupport, that's why he loves MobaFire. But, it doesn't really matter if your opinion or the opinions of high Elo players match mine or not, I am telling you that W is the highest damage output skill to max on Vayne. And that's a FACT JuNSuPpOrT. :B Your statements are just as much opinions as the rest of the opinions being thrown out here in this thread, and it doesn't matter what colors you use for emphasis or how you type them. The paragraphs you write on the topic are just as meaningless as mine are in the grand scheme of high Elo play. All we really know for sure is our own personal experience. I wonder how often you play Vayne, Jun?[/quote]

[quote=Mowen]I just wanted to throw this out there. I always thought leveling W first was bad, but I played support Janna with Duff and he hit like a truck at level 2. The shield probably helped but I was still really surprised by his damage output. Vayne's passive combined with a tumble lets you easily get 3 hits off on a champ, and if you have a support with you you can be aggressive enough to do so. I usually leveled E first, but will probably try W first next time I play her to try it out. Also keep in mind that Duff uses specific runes to capitalize on this aggressive playstyle that gives you good lane control / early game advantage. Like he said the 6 as marks help him get off his 3 hits. I think this is a pretty legitimate way to play Vayne, even if it's not the typical way. From what I've seen from Duff playing Vayne it works pretty freaking well. I'll have to test it for myself too! ;)[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=DuffTime]high elo players who don't know how to play Vayne [/quote] This is an opinion - It has no validity. Thinking high-elo players don't know what they're doing shows you clearly don't know as much about the game. Whether or not it's the highest output skill - It's not the highest PRACTICAL output skill. lol And it's not about whether or not a high-ELO player says it - It's about what high-ELO players do - Plenty of Vayne mains don't write guides and don't explain their methods well. But they do better then you ever can because they DO know how to use Vayne. It's clear you don't know how top strategies get developed. And no, its not meaningless, you're using strawman logic - Trying to dumb down my evidence when it's still valid. The reason everyone here disagrees with you is because no one who maxes W first has climbed the ELO ladder. I've played my fair share of vayne (50+ games enough for you?) - I've TRIED maxing W first - It sucks because people don't stay long enough for you to proc it twice. Hit-and-Run tactics are strongest for Vayne's lane phase - Making Condemn and Tumble the best skills the max because they define her playstyle. My words aren't meaningless because what's considered best is defined by high-elo. It doesn't matter that you think high-elo players don't know what they're doing. What matters is the methods of high-ELO and how people make it into the high-elo brackets. What I write IS meaningful because it's based on how high-ELO works - Not the other way around. What I say doesn't get used in high-ELO, what gets used in High-ELO becomes what I say. Clearly, you have nothing left to say, because all you're obsessed with is Silver Bolts and no longer stating anything in your favor. Just a big fish in a small pond. Condemn and Tumble are the most practical and strong skill for Vayne. How much damage Silver Bolts deals early game is irrelevant. That's the strategic fact of the matter. We're not talking about mathcraft facts - We're talking about practicality - What's best for the actual game play and Silver Bolts is not the best. Mathcraft holds no validity when the game also incorporates positioning, timing, and in-game psychology. It's proven again and again everyday by Vayne players (particularly this week due to Vayne free week) Again, your statements remain opinions derived with mathcraft. My statements remain facts of the status-quo because they're derived from actual gameplay that includes mathcraft, positioning, and timing into considered. Actual gameplay > Math because math is only one component of actual gameplay.[/quote]